Grammarsquee!

[amedia]

I have a new post up at fandom_grammar on dangling modifiers. I got some awesome behind-the-scenes help from my fellow grammarians and a stack of resources from TODS, including the splendid Transitive Vampire.

Comments

[verilyverity.livejournal.com]

W00t! That one's mine!

[amedia.livejournal.com]

*nod nod* It was an awesome question - I pounced on it!

[verilyverity.livejournal.com]

Can we do telescoping relative clauses next? Can we? Can we? Huh?

[amedia.livejournal.com]

Your enthusiasm is contagious!

Yes, yes, of course, submit the question! I'll even pounce on it if you want, or we can let one of the other grammarians grab it.

What IS a telescoping relative clauuse?

[verilyverity.livejournal.com]

You know, "As she did this, as she did that, as she, as she as she..."

It may not be a technical term.

[amedia.livejournal.com]

As she did this, as she did that, as she, as she as she..."


Huh. I thought those were various kinds of clauses, depending on context - usually temporal or um... some other kind. Can you give me an example situating the "as" clause within a sentence?

I googled telescoping relative clause, I'll have you know, and the results I got made my head spin. As near as I can tell, the term actually refers to a type of restrictive clause that is elliptical in some way:

"Ferraro criticized Reagan for what he said."
which is really short for
"Ferror criticized Reagan for saying what he said."

The other example given was:

"I was amazed at what the Cubs paid Sutcliffe."
which is really short for
"I was amazed that the Cubs paid Sutcliffe what they paid him."

Oh! I get it! (I didn't until now.) These are clauses that are actually short for indirect statements. At least the second one is.

[verilyverity.livejournal.com]

Huh. I'd no idea it actually referred to something grammatical. I use the term to refer to a string of relative clauses wherein each refers to the one before. This is particularly irksome when they're As clauses, because the muddle of self-reference is compounded by the monotony of the repetition and the stilted quality of misused As clauses in general.

[amedia.livejournal.com]

a string of relative clauses wherein each refers to the one before

Like the House that Jack Built, right?

This is the maiden all forlorn, who milked the cow with the crumpled horn, who did something else I can't remember with someone who had some other quality I have forgotten, that lived in the house that Jack built?

I can see why you'd call that telescoping. Like the kind of telescope that slides back in on itself.

My mom used to scold me for using "as" to introduce clauses, because it's so ambiguous, so even as an adult, I don't use it. I should tell her that sometime, come to think of it.;

[verilyverity.livejournal.com]

Yep. That's the one. Now imagine that with a bunch of boring as clauses.

[amedia.livejournal.com]

Now imagine that with a bunch of boring as clauses.

I initially read that as "boring-ass clauses" - and yeah, it works both ways, doesn't it!

But "as" clauses aren't relative clauses; relative clauses need to begin with relative pronouns. (I'm trying to remember if we have also relative adjectives in English, but every example I come up with is an interrogative adjective. Dang!)

Maybe it should be an entry on "as" clauses and why they suck, *especially* when they are proceeding in company.

[verilyverity.livejournal.com]

relative clauses need to begin with relative pronouns.

*looks it up* So they do. I think this is where the osmosis thing comes in to trip me up.

So what would you call a subordinate clause that refers directly back to the noun that immediately precedes it, rather than the subject of the main clause?

Besides ill-conceived.

[amedia.livejournal.com]

Depends on what it's doing. Lame sentence examples off the top of my head:

Cain called to DG as she crossed the lake.

Temporal clause. ("as" = "while")

Glitch kept his brain under the bed, as it was well-hidden there.

I forget what you call this. I wanna call it "causative" but I'm sure that's wrong. ("as" = "because")

I'm trying to remember other uses of "as" as a conjunction introducing a subordinate clause. But you'd basically name it according to what it's pretending to be. (ETA: I don't think it matters whether the subject of the subordinate clause is the same as the subject of the sentence, as long as it's unambiguous.)

[verilyverity.livejournal.com]

Boo. I want kicky little nicknames I can haul out instead of long geeky paragraphs out of Strunk and White.

[amedia.livejournal.com]

:-)

You know, you can always submit some examples of the kind of awful sentences you're talking about, and the fan grammarians can try to figure out what to call the problem and turn it into a neat little packaged question. That's what I did with the gerunds-with-possessives question. (There's a closed community to which the grammarians belong where these things are hashed out before answers are posted.)

[verilyverity.livejournal.com]

I'll have to start collecting them.

I'd need to modify it, though, because I usually find them in fic.

[amedia.livejournal.com]

*nod nod* I understand.

[verilyverity.livejournal.com]

Oh! How about the suck that is passive voice?

*scurries off to ask*

[verilyverity.livejournal.com]

PS: Dangling modifier answer was made of win and delicious candy.

[amedia.livejournal.com]

PS: Dangling modifier answer was made of win and delicious candy.

Eeeee! That just made my night. :-D

[verilyverity.livejournal.com]

Mine too, 'cos I have no delicious candy. :(

[lionille.livejournal.com]

This is the cock that crowed in the morn
That woke the priest all shaven and shorn
That married the man all rumpled and torn
That kissed the maiden all forlorn
That milked the cow with the crumpled horn
That tossed the dog
That worried the cat
That killed the rat
That ate the malt
That lay in the house that Jack built.

Sorry. Just wanted to see if I remembered it all. I always liked that rhyme. Except the killing the rat part. I like rats. I usually changed that to ‘chased’ when I was a sensitive little kid, hee. And oh, am I nuts that this makes me want to write Glitch/OFC-milkmaid fic? The once-dashing courtier now in tattered clothes and the humble servant maiden and their forbidden love?

[amedia.livejournal.com]

The once-dashing courtier now in tattered clothes and the humble servant maiden and their forbidden love?

Awww... that would be SWEET!!!!

And I am impressed at your mad memorization skilz!

[lionille.livejournal.com]

Hee! Mind like a steel sieve...

[lionille.livejournal.com]

Actually, I think it might have been "tattered and torn" come to think of it.

[bulleteyes.livejournal.com]

Alton! I love learning about food from him :) Keep at the booby women and the high pressure men. Give me Alton and I am happy.

[amedia.livejournal.com]

Isn't he wonderful? TODS likes him too. I love his whole "Mr. Science" approach, and his wacky supporting cast.

[bulleteyes.livejournal.com]

I went to 13 different schools in twelve years. My education was . . . sporadic. Moving all those times had me giving up on making friends so I spent all my time in each school library. I developed a system. I started with the "A" section, read everything by each authour (I've had many discussions through the years on how reading an entire body of work gives strong insight and the ability to understand what the authour is saying versus what they really mean) and moved on. By the time I had graduated high school I was through all the Updike.

I can barely grasp arithmetic. My algebra teacher was a neat man and considered hard to get to know. We got along well after an initial confrontation that turned out to be something her repeated to every class for as long as he taught but I did not know it at the time. He passed me and I signed up for his class again. He was confounded. I told him it was good to pass. It is better to understand. I can still see him shaking his head and smiling. The second year we got on even better and I did catch onto a few things now long gone.

In fifth grade I had a truly anointed grammar teacher. She understood I was not stupid, just untaught. That woman worked with me so much. Another good relationship there. All the more unusual since I was in an integrated school and that whole concept was a powder keg in those days. The day I was able to diagram a sentence she gave me a big hug and kiss. We both we so proud.

I'm in pain and rambling but you understand. Just wanted you to know how much I loved learning and still do. It's hard sometimes not knowing the basics while I do grasp that James Thurber was a bitter, angry man who strongly disliked women.

Life is funny, amedia. My dream for years has been to audit college courses. I haven't given it up.